image courtesy of wikipedia
My wife, Renée, and I have a wonderful relationship. We share many interests including food and drink, and enjoy the things where we diverge, too. But there are disagreements in every relationship, and ours is no exception. Ours just happens to involve a sandwich. As domestic disputes go, this one certainly doesn’t rank very highly on the seriousness scale, but this is important stuff, and it is not to be taken lightly.
Those English Have A Different Word for Everything
I have a great deal of respect to the English language, as does Renée, particularly for how things are described and defined and this is where the dispute begins. Renée contends that a Reuben made with turkey is still a Reuben. I, on the other hand, say a Rueben has a definition that includes a specific set of ingredients that does not include turkey. Therefore a sandwich made without those specific ingredients is not a Reuben. Change the cheese? Not a Rueben. Change dressing? Not a Rueben. Change the bread? Not a Rueben. Change the meat? Not. A. Rueben. Renée’s Reuben is just a turkey sandwich with sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, and Russian dressing on rye bread. In fact, that’s what I call it: the Renée Reuben.
Supporters Weigh In
This debate has already been carried out on Facebook following a post referring to my call-in to Q104′s Wilde & Fee Morning Show Marriage Ref segment. (I was declared the winner, by the way, and have the prize pack to prove it.) There are those who contend that a Reuben is a Reuben is a Reuben. I say, “Not so fast!”, and am not alone in my belief. Esteemed smart ass and scary smart friend Don Vanco commented thusly:
“Dousing a hot dog in buffalo sauce doesn’t make it a chicken wing. There’s only one Reuben – and it’s no turkey. What makes a Cobb Salad a Cobb Salad? What makes Devilsfood Cake a Devilsfood Cake? Food items get specific names beyond a simple category for a reason… Is it a sammich? Yes. It is a Reuben? Decidedly not.”
Debi Cary Harbuck summed it up nicely:
“It’s a matter of integrity of words. You cannot just change definitions and make them mean something else.”
Amen, sister.
The simplest example I can give comes from chemistry. We all know that water is H2O. Don’t like the O and want to substitute something else? Okay, how about Sulfur, which give us H2S, or hydrogen sulfide, a colorless, toxic, flammable gas partially responsible for the foul odor of rotten eggs and flatulence. Obviously, this is not water and it would be silly to call it so. I used a different example on my radio call-in: Is a Bloody Mary made with orange juice instead of tomato juice still a Bloody Mary? I think not.
Renée has her own argument:
If I say “turkey reuben” everyone knows exactly what I mean–therefore, it IS one. And someone told me that’s a “Rachel” sandwich–but if I say “Rachel” does everyone know what that is???? No. Turkey Reuben. Menus everywhere have it listed! Deal with it!
She has her supporters as well. Brenda Carrol Karnes wrote,
” There are other examples….we don’t say that apple pie a la mode is not apple pie. We just add the single different ingredient and everyone gets it!”
Jeannine Soster said,
“It’s the ONLY Reuben I eat!”
Heidi Laasko commented,
“I love turkey reubens! With cole slaw instead of kraut.”
And Tricia Stuckey Gardner said,
“…Turkey still counts!”
The Definitive Record of the English Language Weighs In
According to the September 1956, American Restaurant Magazine, in an article titled “National Sandwich Winners”:
THE RUEBEN, a hearty man-sized sandwich of corned beef, sauerkraut and Swiss cheese on Russian rye bread, is the nation’s top hotel and restaurant sandwich in the opinion of judges of the National Sandwich Idea Contest in which more than 600 different sandwich items are entered from all parts of the country and Hawaii. The Rueben was submitted by Fern Snider, chef at the Rose Bowl Restaurant in Omaha, Nebr.
Unwilling to accept the definition provided by the National Sandwich Idea Contest? Okey dokey. How about the Oxford English Dictionary? According to the OED,
“The Reuben sandwich is a sandwich made with corned beef, sauerkraut, Swiss cheese, Russian or sometimes Thousand Island dressing, on grilled or toasted rye bread.”
The Reuben is not without variations, but they are variations that fundamentally alter the definition of the sandwich, hence the distinction offered by the change in naming. For example, the Rachel sandwich substitutes pastrami for the corned beef and coleslaw for the sauerkraut. Other recipes for the Rachel call for <ahem> turkey instead of corned beef or pastrami. And just because you see it on the menu doesn’t mean it’s right. It’s called marketing.
You Decide
And so, dear readers, I put it to you to decide a winner in this disagreement. Is a turkey Reuben a Reuben or is it simply a turkey sandwich? Vote below and comment if you like. The winner in the poll shall be henceforth and forever acknowledged as such in the eyes of the world. Tell you what, I’ll even pick a winner for the best comment who will receive something cool. Maybe Jerry Seinfeld will think this debate worthy of its own segment on The Marriage Ref. Either way, enjoy the sandwich of your choice!
{ 14 comments… read them below or add one }
I have no further comment – but I thank you for including my comment along with those right-thinkers out there.
Hats off for a far and balanced blog posting.
Variations on a theme are such a vital aspect of American culture that one adapts and accepts immediately. It's part of our creative society. Someone first made the first pot of "chili" with a specific set of ingredients that have been changed over the years. Each of the variations is still called "chili." With each change designation, we know what type of chili is on the menu. I love turkey chili. Does the turkey make it something other than chili? I think not. Technically speaking, an recipe that has been named with a specific set of ingredients is known by its original title. That title, however, remains the same, even when an ingredient changes, if a "critical mass" understands and accepts the variation as part of the original . In my view, both opinions are correct.
You chili argument is valid, but I don't think it applies to the Reuben because chili has always been loosely defined. A Reuben is well defined and did not evolve; it was created with specific ingredients.
I don't think it's an argument understanding, it's one of definition. I think it's on menus because it's a mnemonic trigger. People know what a Reuben is, so when you say "Turkey Reuben" they do the mental substitution. It's good shorthand for "turkey sandwich with sauerkraut, Russian dressing, and Swiss cheese on toasted rye bread". Think of the money saved on printing! So, in essence, people have to understand what a Reuben is in the first place to do the substitution. Therefore, the true definition of a Reuben is already established in their minds. Restaurateurs are simply making it easier to communicate by calling it a turkey Reuben. It's still not a Reuben. You could substitute turkey for the bacon in a BLT and call it a turkey BLT. But that wouldn't be a BLT any more than a turkey Reuben is a Reuben.
Please don't tell Renee I voted "absolutely not!"
You are still WONDERFUL and BEAUTIFUL to me.
I applaud your logic, Brenda! And Cathy, I will no longer refer to you as WONDERFUL BEAUTIFUL Aunt Cathy!
I haven't seen Paul in 30 years but I can tell you that he is correct, as usual.
"Reuben" accepts no other qualifier, except "awesome". It is a wonderful sandwich made with corned beef. Take the corned beef out and replace it with turkey or pastrami and you know what you got yourself? You got yourself a Rachel.
A Turkey Reuben is not a Reuben at all, it is a whole other thing, it is a Rachel.
Jeff, you are thoughtful and wise, as always, my friend.
To simply call it a "Reuben" would be blasphemy to the corned beef Gods and is entirely unacceptable. However if Renee orders a "Turkey Reuben" I suppose it's within the acceptable range. It's all in the wording. Sort of like cheese is cheese and it can only be cheese. Pasteurized Processed Cheese Food or worse; Imitation Pasteurized Process Cheese Food, simply can't be called cheese, and it shouldn't even be called food. So, as long as she puts the "turkey" before the sandwich, it probably isn't a huge crime, but it also isn't a reuben either.
Not sure I accept the "loosely defined" aspect of chili when at least three of the ingredients, as well as the base flavor, are pretty standard. The term BLT is so familiar that anyone who saw TLT on a menu would figure it out quickly. That's why I called it even. You are correct, a Reuben is what it is….but Renee is also correct….it is NOW also sometihng else and it isn't going to go away. As a matter of fact, I'm going to make a tuna Reuben any day now!
I like my Reubens with peanut butter and jelly on white bread. Doesn’t matter, grape or strawberry or peach, it’s still a Reuben to me.
Yeah, sorry, It just doesn’t work for me. It comes down to what makes it a Reuben vs. just another sandwich? The specific ingredient combination or the condiments and the bread? If you have all the ingredients but it’s on Wonder Bread, is it a Wonder Bread Reuben? What about if it has everything but has Italian dressing? Is that an Italian Reuben? I think all the ingredients have to align to make it a Reuben. If you have to qualify it, turkey Reuben, then it’s not a Reuben. You don’t order a Reuben and then get asked, “Turkey or corned beef?” Sorry, Chica. I side with Paolo.
Paolo says, “Ciao!”
Calling a turkey Reuben a "reuben" is like calling a vodka martini a "martini." As DG Strong would tell you, it is blasphemy, as is calling ANY flavored crap drink SERVED in a martini glass any kind of martini. "Apple-tini"? "Chocolate martini"?
The MARTINI is made with gin. I personally think gin tastes like perfume (because I tasted my mother's Madame Jolie when I was five, thinking it had to taste like flowers), and don't drink it. Nevertheless, I mentally roll my eyes when I hear variations of the martini that are absolutely ludicrous. "Cloyingly Sweet Apple Cocktail in a Martini Glass" should be the name of the libation.
So, "Turkey Reuben"? I still think that's acceptable usage, but it's a shorthand that's hard for purists to accept.
First of all, Welcome to the Foodie Blogroll!
Wow, what a can of worms you have opened;)
I'm no Reuben expert since I just ate my first "Reuben" yesterday (lifelong fear of sauerkraut). But then again, it might not be a Reuben since a) I used homemade 1,000 Island dressing (acceptable sub as noted in the wikipedia entry) and 2) I smoked a corned beef into pastrami.
But your quandary ultimately comes down to the saying, "There are two ways to argue with a woman, neither one works."